Garden Hermits, Aunt Catherine, and Clement's Departure

jordansdream · October 2016

I secured a charming book by Gordon Campbell called The Hermit in the Garden from Imperial Rome to Garden Gnome. My impression is that with the exception of the paid fortune telling hermit in London's Vauxhall Gardens, actual hermits for garden hermitages were far and few between after 1830 with the longest running documented post at Hawkstone from 1784 to 1915 held by generations of the same family. In 1801, the Hawkstone hermit was--at least for a period--an automaton operated by a talented voice actor. From both Vauxhall and Hawkstone, I get a vibe of early theme park, not a big surprise as the goal of adding a hermit with hermitage or hermitage alone to the gardens of vast (vast by today's standards) landholders in the 1700s seems to have been to provide a place to awaken and indulge deep melancholy feelings (sensibility) in visitors without much taking into account any actual suffering. This motivation strikes me as not dissimilar to the reasons people today ride roller coasters although the emotions sought were quite different.

@Gracie_DeForest In Pride and Prejudice, Longbourn--which from what I have read would have been a 1,000 acres or less and hence small--had a hermitage and a wild garden. It was there that Lady Catherine behaved so abominably to Elizabeth. I could not help noticing that Lady Catherine in PIP seems to have lost her Lady Bracknell edge. If you're not familiar with Wilde's The Importance of Being Ernest, Dowager Lady Grantham in Downton Abbey is a close second. I rarely watch Downton Abbey myself (the evil footman/butler makes my skin crawl) but the few times I

have seen it Dowager Lady Grantham always has the best lines. For example, "I was right about my maid. She's leaving to get married. I mean, how could she be so selfish?" In Pride and Prejudice, one of Lady Catherine's funnier sallies is "Unfeeling, selfish girl! Do you not consider that a connection with you must disgrace him in the eyes of everybody?" In a similar vein is Lady Bracknell's take on Mr. Worthing's status as a foundling, "To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness." Now that Clement won't be around to look for what rhymes with "lass" and provide us with inspiring tracts on garden architecture and features, I dare to hope that Lady Catherine or a another character will step into the comic relief breach left by his departure.

dazzlerdream · October 2016

I'll have to check that book @jordansdream thanks! I just finished reading "Edenbrooke" by Julianne Donaldsonit, the book had a lot of good reviews which is why I got it and it was interesting, but it completely lacked any historical accuracy, I didn't know what to think when I was reading it. is it regency, Victorian, 1790? I didn't know, it wavered all the way through and had a modern touch of a 1980s novel. It was cute if you just concentrated on the story and nothing else, but I love to imagine the world I'm reading, and since I had no idea of the time frame I didn't know what clothes to put my characters in, hair, furniture etc.. I just have this vague feeling of it, which really disappoints me. It's really nice to read posts from someone interested in history like me, and I really appreciate all the mentions of other works I can look into.

I actually have only watched 1 episode of Downtown Abbey, and the butler was enough for me too lol. I don't know if you've seen any of the Pride and Prejudice adaptations to television, but the 1995 BBC version with Colin firth and Jennifer Ehle is universally acknowledged as the best. I like that one very much as well for being the most accurate to the book among other things, however I recently watched the 1940s version with Greer Garson and Laurence Olivier (oh how I faint over him) and it was simply lovely. The clothes and acting is something they can't seem to achieve these days. I know it isn't the most faithful to the book or even the time and the writer did take a great deal of creative licence for it, but the movie itself is so charming and I can over look all of that and just watch it for the enjoyment of seeing something so pretty.

Keep that keen eye for detail open, I love reading all you have to say about Peril in Pemberley!

Dazzle

jordansdream · October 2016

@dazzledream Have you thought of reading Fanny Burney? Cecilia, or Memoirs of an Heiress came out in 1782. There are several other writers you might enjoy. I'll edit and add some. I thought I had found some time this morning but I'm wrong, so I'll edit later. One good thing about novels written 200 plus years ago is that you can find them free online or available for download from a service ranging in price from free to 99 cents; another is that some are surprisingly readable.

I also liked Evelina, Fanny Burney's first novel, although the epistolary--meaning written as a series of letters--format makes it harder for modern readers to relax into.

Moving forward in time to the 1850s, Anthony Trollope's Barchester Towers is a rollicking comic novel with enough of a romantic thread to keep me trotting pleasantly along.

My bar none favorite romantic novels are the historical trilogy Kristin Lavransdatter, published in the 1920s and written by Sigrid Undset, who received the Nobel Prize in literature for them in 1928. The setting is Norway in the 1300s and the books span the entire life of our heroine. I have read two different English translations of Kristin Lavransdatter and loved both. Given the time span, please, give the first novel, which is The Bridal Wreath (more recently called simply The Wreath), around 75 pages to get moving but don't skip them or you may miss Kristin's childhood encounter with someone who may or may not be a fairy queen. Kristin Lavransdatter is sometimes categorized as tragic. That is hogwash. The trilogy is the tale of the full life of a remarkable woman that does not end with the sound of wedding bells. Try to download or buy/borrow hard copies of all three at once so you don't have to wait around to start the next two. These are Mistress of Husaby (more recently called The Wife) and The Cross. I should mention, too, that I have sampled some of Undset's other novels and thought them dreary; your mileage may differ.

Kristin Lavransdatter came to mind because, like the works of Jane Austen, it has remained both relevant and a dynamite read throughout the course of my reading life.

@Dazzlerdream remarked about the Greer Garson/Laurence Olivier Pride and Prejudice "the movie itself is so charming and I can over look all of that and just watch it for the enjoyment of seeing something so pretty."I have seen this and agree about overlooking lack of slavish adherence to the novel and period when the result justifies the departure, rather as PIP does with the period and Austen references.

dazzlerdream · October 2016

@jordansdream This is such a coincidence, I just finished Evelina and am moving on to Cecilia. I think she is going to rank up there with my favorite authors! I actually received Evelina as a gift in the 3 volume set as it was originally release (as was pride and prejudice) and loved reading every minute of it, I do believe at present Lord Orville as replace all others in my heart.

It is very nice that the older novels are easy to acquire since I actually prefer them to the newer ones, although there are ones written in the 50s that I like very much as well. What I like best about them is that you get to see into a world that is long passed and you would never get to peer into if it were not for the books that have been preserved. I would also add that they increase my vocabulary too and show how to use the word!

The books written in the epistolary fashion are often my favorites, that could be the fact that my first novels were that of Daddy-Long-Legs written by Jean Webster and The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. I was so caught up in the story I was as surprised as Judy at the end, although I have been told by others who have read it they expected it all the time. Also I know some people that, like you said, can't really relax into the story when it is in that format.

I really appreciate the book recommendations and I'll see if I can get my hands on The Wreath, The wife and The cross as soon as possible.

Also I noticed in a another post you were researching the paintings and I came across these pictures of Lyme hall and Sudbury Hall when I was doing some researching of my own. I don't know if they would be useful but here they are below:

Spoiler:

The exterior of Lyme Hall was used as Pemberley in the 1995 BBC version and the inside was the Sudbury, it appeared that they were originally going to use the inside of Lyme Hall as well but at the last minute the owner changed and they lost the right to shoot inside, so they filmed inside Sudbury instead which is very interesting if you look at the floor plan for it, because it appears that the entire length of the house it taken up by the gallery you see above.

Spoiler:

jordansdream · October 2016

@dazzlerdream Thanks for the photographs and the floor plan. Very thoughtful. While playing PIP, every time I reentered Pemberley I wondered about the floor plan and what lay beyond closed doors and corners I could not turn.

dazzlerdream · October 2016

Hi @jordansdream I wondered the same thing! I think that the actual floor plan is closer to Lyme Hall and although they seem to be very protective on the inside and don't even allow cameras when you go and visit it, I did find I brochure with the floor plan on it

Spoiler:

Turned to be a little bigger:

Although for myself I always like to imagine that where they say the saloon is, there would be a ballroom. Because every great estate needs a ballroom and then it would be right off the main staircase and would be on the same side as the dining room, so after you dance you could go to dinner. However, this floor plan is a bit confusing I can't tell if they have the upstairs and down stairs together because I'm sure they wouldn't have so many bedrooms on the ground floor because you would need those for all the activities performed in the 1820s such as dinner parties, balls, general meeting and entertaining, not to mention a study where business would be done, and since this is on a brochure maybe these are only the rooms you can look at while you're there. I'm only guessing though, never having been to Lyme myself, but here is the ground floor plan for Sugbury and it makes much more sense to me:

Spoiler:

P.S I noticed I had forgotten the spelling on Lyme hall and had to correct it.

jordansdream · October 2016

A ballroom does not have to be on the ground floor, and there you have the sum total of my knowledge on the subject of ballrooms in large houses. This makes a ballroom between the family wing and the guest wing a possibility.

Ground Floor: Another location downstairs might be that the locked door on the right as you face the staircase leads to a ballroom instead of to below stairs which is what I initially thought or that the door near the painting of the child with the dog which pops Jane out through another door into the gallery led her to a shortcut through a ballroom. Yet another thought is that if you turn right at the end of the gallery, a ballroom will be on the left.

I'm going to do a little delving and see if saloons doubled as ballrooms and other important aspects of country balls.

Third Floor: According to what I am now reading, the third floor is likeliest spot by Victorian times. I found a third floor ballroom in a 1791 house in the U.S.

dazzlerdream · October 2016

You know that sounds vaguely familar, I think I read somewhere as well about the ball being on the second floor or at least them retiring to a second floor sitting room. Maybe it was in a Jane Austen letter or something.

Wow a third floor ballroom that sounds impressive, I wonder if that was only in the US or came over from England, I do love the fashions of the 1770s-1790s, although what is interesting is my father always says he and others (guys) think the regency is the best looking on girls, he said they don't really like the corset look. Just another perspective, I would have always thought that guys would like the more hourglass shape that the other fashions bring but maybe that is only for ladies?

jordansdream · October 2016

Third Floor Ballroom: Came over from Great Britain with the rest of the early colonists is my bet. I'll be surprised if the answer is otherwise.

Ballroom at Pemberley: It occurs to me that we do not know anything about the wing that fronts the main drive where the ever so discrete groom leaves or leads away Jane's horses. Inside the house, do not a set of impressive gilt trimmed double doors flank one side of the foyer and remain shut throughout PIP? Perhaps those doors are to the ballroom? It strikes me that double doors into a ballroom are a good idea because they allow the footman doing the announcing and a couple entering ample room. If I can be certain that I'll get the form of address right, I'll add an example. I have no idea under what circumstances arrivals at a private ball were announced. Arrivals were probably not announced at public assemblies.

The wing may be closed because Jane's parents are in London along with most of the servants; certainly Pemberley seems to be operating with a skeleton staff. I admire and enjoy the game's convention of the unseen governess who leaves clues and puzzles and Hogarth's helpful, behind the scenes contribution to the mystery's solution.

Saloon as Ballroom: An 1836 article in London's Morning Advertiser, reports that the Duchess of Kent gave a ball at Kensington Palace where "the grand saloon was prepared for dancing." An 1807 article in London's Morning Post on a birthday party at Wentworth House in Yorkshire given for Lord Milton upon his majority equates a grand saloon with a ballroom. The OED defines ballroom as a "large room for formal dancing" and salon/saloon from Chambers Encyclopedia 1728 edition as "a very lofty spacious hall vaulted at the top, and sometimes comprehending two stories." From these definitions and from contemporaneous accounts of lavish parties, it seems clear that a saloon or grand saloon often doubled as a ballroom.

dazzlerdream · November 2016

Hi @jordansdream I got a copy of Kristin Lavransdatter The Wreath a few days ago and am enjoying it very much! Thank you so much for the recommendation!

I often find that unseen people are almost just as good as ones seen, especially when it comes to detectives and things. I love how in the Perry Mason's they have so many operatives. I just wish it carried over more in the television versions because it is so easy to say "I have a man watching the house" even if you never see the house or man. They did do this a bit in the early episodes but completely dropped it in later ones!

Something else is when Miss Clue was leading up to the release of Peril In Pemberley, they were releasing fun facts about regency times each day. you can find them here:

http://www.missclue.com/?page=1

Have a great day!

-Dazzle

MidnightMystery · November 2016

@dazzlerdream I had completely forgotten about the regency facts they posted! I just read through them all again :D that time in history was so awesome

jordansdream · November 2016

In terms of unseen actors, I enjoyed the governess whose name I forget as a plot device, Mrs. Reynolds the cook with at least 8 hands, Hogarth the head stableman, and the invisible groom.

jordansdream · November 2016

On the advantages of the double doors is this Cruikshank print: argument for double doors

dazzlerdream · November 2016

I think her name was Mrs/Miss Ansley? your governess I mean. If I'm not mistaken that is the name of some one in Jane Austen's novels, could she be the governess in Pride and Prejudice?

Definitely need double doors! they would fit much better in this room by James Tissot:

Too early

jordansdream · November 2016

Thanks for the hint. After searching in vain for an Ainsley and an Ansley, I finally found Mrs. Annesley who is the amiable companion of Georgiana Darcy. Nice Mrs. Annesley had faded from my memory completely, overshadowed as she was by the perfidious first governess who, in turn, is reminiscent of the nurse in Romeo and Juliet.

I think the next time I read Pride and Prejudice I'm going to start in the middle. Darcy is so conscious of his rank and its obligations in the beginning what with hustling Bingley off to London and later failing to apprise him that the Bennet sisters are in town that I never quite manage to get over my annoyance and believe Darcy would ally himself outside of an advantageous business merger. Austen's use of Georgiana's first governess's relationship with Wickham is a tidy bit of plotting, a small example of skill at yarn spinning, neat and precise as a carefully worked petit point reticule.

(Edited to add: I think I should check whether the ghastly first governess is even in the book. Perhaps I am superimposing a Hollywood version over Austen's text, so now I have an excellent reason to reread.)

Here is a description of Mrs. Annesley trying to bring ease and civility to an awkward dinner: "Mrs. Annesley, a genteel, agreeable looking woman, whose endeavour to introduce some kind of discourse proved her to be more truly well bred than either of the others."

jordansdream · November 2016

In perusing, I noticed then failed to add that Georgiana herself attended school, probably uncommon for the period and certainly for someone of her station, then at 15 she was set-up with her own establishment. In order to do that, Mr.Darcy employed first Mrs. Younge, the accomplice of Wickham, then Mrs. Annesley to be Georgiana's companion. Note that these two women were companions, not governesses. The role of a companion was to be a chaperone and to give both Georgiana and Mrs. Annesley more freedom of movement to socialize, shop, and move more freely in public than would otherwise have been correct.

I took another look at the back half of P&P from somewhere maybe around the middle of Volume Two. I had forgotten how much I liked the arrival of two letters written at different times on the same day. That must have happened often.

jordansdream · November 2016

When Georgiana was a child, she and Wickham were friends. Thereafter, she consents to elope with him while visiting a seaside resort in the company of Mrs. Younge. I suspect that he first renewed his acquaintance with Georgiana while she was at school.

ColourzRnice · November 2016

It's very fun to read everything that has been written here, keep up the research guys!

If we ever touch upon what is our favorite part of Pride and Prejudice is mine would be where Mr. Darcy returned early to Pemberley and met Elizabeth again, it's just a perfect stroke of fate, and I love things like that!

dazzlerdream · November 2016

Nice find @jordansdream I guess if you were to continue their lives for another 20 years maybe they liked Mrs. Annesley so well that they wanted her as a governess for Jane after she was no longer needed as a companion for Georgiana? It is kind of nice they tried to include as many people as possible in Peril in Pemberley, although I can't say I'm not glad they left out Lydia and Wickham!

I have to admit that it always annoyed me as well about Bingley, as I am very close to my own sister, and having him intervene like that was frustrating. Although as a whole I think Jane Austen was trying to show the difference in rank in English society and the change of all the characters over the course of their experiences and most of them were for the better which is always a good course to pursue!

My writing is never as interesting as Jane Austen's because I have the most terrible time putting my heroine into trying situations! I want everyone to be happy at all times which in life is never the way it actually goes. I shall never forget the mortification I experienced along side Evelina when her cousin told her of his breaking Lord Orville's carriage window! I almost died and would have certainly written the letter she wrote! I was so thankful when it was over!

It's amazing the amount of detail the old painters put into their paintings, for instance; this one you could write an entire story about without even trying. And they way he achieves the cloth is simply astounding!

The way by James tissot:

jordansdream · November 2016

dazzlerdream said:

I have to admit that it always annoyed me as well about Bingley, as I am very close to my own sister, and having him intervene like that was frustrating. Although as a whole I think Jane Austen was trying to show the difference in rank in English society and the change of all the characters over the course of their experiences and most of them were for the better which is always a good course to pursue!

********

Yes, your comment brings to mind Mr. Bennet who understands his own nature well enough to know that nothing will improve it. He is such an engaging person in the beginning when he refuses to pressure Elizabeth about Collins that it's clear Austen herself likes Mr. Bennet, then decides she is morally obligated to pin a large portion of the blame for Lydia's misfortune on his failure as a father. The only discordant character note, for me anyway, in P&P occurs during the denouement when we are informed that Mr. Bennet likes Wickham the best of all his sons in law. Perhaps at that point the reader is supposed to grasp and gasp that Mr. Bennet had moral failings as a patriarch all along.

I enjoyed the Tissot paintings and have looked at a ream of other Tissots since you posted "Too Early." I am not a sophisticated art person and anecdotal paintings are my favorites. If you look at the list of paintings that Clement left in the library, you will notice that the sheepdog painting is not included with the others in the attic. This was a good call by the anachronism police in terms of not getting too far away from the period. The likeliest candidate for that painting appears below and has been attributed to Walter Hunt or Albrecht Schenck at various times. Both were active much later in the century. Hunt is now thought to be the artist; his dates are 1861-1941.

I have also appended Wilkie's Gentle Shepherd with the dog at his side as it is more appropriate for PIP's collection.

jordansdream · November 2016

jordansdream · November 2016

jordansdream · November 2016

I want to veer away from paintings for a moment and consider the libraries of great houses. Pemberley's library is a treasure trove; in addition to

Spoiler:

the wonderful squint and astrolabe

the books themselves are rife with possibilities beyond

Spoiler:

the list of monarchs

.

For example, I'm reasonably sure the library would contain a complete set of Buffon's Natural History:

jordansdream · November 2016

The Comte de Buffon was guillotined in 1794. Here is a cat illustration from the 38 volume set: Buffon's_Natural_CAT

jordansdream · November 2016

I am as interested in what books might be in the library as in the paintings; however, I am digressing from books back to pictures as I have come across this 1822 painting, the Highland Family, by Sir David Wilkie which the Darcys could have acquired hot off the easel: 1822 Wilkie Highland Family

dazzlerdream · November 2016

These are wonderful paintings and I haven't seen any of them so that is always fun to see new things! I admit that Mr. Bennet's comment on wickham also surprised me since wickham nearly ruined the family's reputation and also the girls chances of a good marriage. Also it disconcerted me that he refused to write and they had to rely on Mr Gardiner to supply them with news of their search. One thing I wished she had changed when writing it because I think showing a father with so many shocking flaws would reflect badly on the family line, where as having a silly mother is almost expected and nobody thinks too ill of it. That is one of the things I admire in the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice, they tried to take the essence of Mr. Bennet but change him to where he seemed to actually have a regard for his wife, daughters and have some sense, even though he had a mischievous side which made him delight in keeping secrets.

A good library is something every gentleman with a great estate must posses so I would also assume Buffon's Natural History to be among the collections. And the kitty is adorable!

Here is a picture which is also too late but fits with the one above. It is of a Scottish man carrying a Sheep home with two dogs at his feet:

The lost sheep by Richard Ansdell (1815–1885) thought to have been painted around 1866

dazzlerdream · November 2016

the Highland Family, by Sir David Wilkie is a joy to look at! I've actually spent 20 minutes just studying it. I love the entire scene it paints. I would hope Mr Darcy perchased it after it was complete because it would do justice to his great Gallery!

jordansdream · November 2016

This is a line worthy of Austen herself: "[S]howing a father with so many shocking flaws would reflect badly on the family line, where as having a silly mother is almost expected and nobody thinks too ill of it." Are you quoting from one of Austen's letters? I do not know them at all.

Come to think it, perhaps Austen did not redeem Mr. Bennet for pragmatic reasons as there would be no conflict without flawed characters and because in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries the intellectual times they were a'changing vis a vis patriarch worship.

Mr. Bennet's remark about Wickham has bothered me for years, so I have decided that Mr. Bennet may have been expressing genuine heartfelt relief that Wickham married Lydia at all as opposed to remaining the agent of family wide tragedy and disgrace. Without Wickham as son-inl-law, the other four girls have no prospects whatsoever in terms of marriage and probably in terms of social circle, and Mr. Bennet will never be allowed to be easy with forgiving himself.

Then I looked at some literary criticism and found a brief essay that referred to a story of an otherwise not dimwitted graduate student who failed to read Mr. Bennet's remark as an example of irony and thought it instead evidence of Mr. Bennet's stupidity. I identified with the hapless student insofar as he or she failed to find irony. The same essay contained two suggestions of meaning based on irony. One is that Mr. Bennet meant the opposite of what he said; and that Austen chose to tell the reader that Mr. Bennet despised Wickham by having Mr. Bennet say the opposite. Another is that Mr. Bennet likes Wickham the best because Wickham's depravity will afford the most opportunities for ridicule. Okay, I have to say it: I still don't see the remark as irony directed at either the reader or a character, and complex literary criticism often makes me wonder if its writers are unintentionally satirizing themselves.

jordansdream · November 2016

jordansdream said:
Below is a portrait of Fanny Burney, circle of Thomas Lawrence.

jordansdream said:
(I have no idea how I managed to mess up the board's quotation system.)

dazzlerdream · November 2016

I guess that is why Jane Austen's works have been Popular for so long, there are so many ways of looking at her Characters and writing that it supplies a lot of conversation! I guess it should be viewed the way everyone wants to view it right?

Where did you get the picture of Fanny Burney? The only ones I've ever been able to find are by "Edward Francisco Burney" when she is wearing a wig. It's interesting to see her without it!

I just finished Kristin Lavransdatter: The Wreath, and it was as good as you described! I'm looking for a copy of the next book now!

jordansdream · November 2016

I came across the Burney portrait on the Chawton House Library website while idly seeking what might be in Pemberley's library, a collection that Jane in PIP and Darcy in P&P tell us was "the work of many generations."

As a matter of whimsy, I am going to pretend that a Darcy, spelled differently, and a Fitzwilliam are mentioned in the Domesday book in 1086. For all I know, variations of both names may, in fact, be in the Domesday Book. Using 1086 as a starting point gives the Darcys over 700 years to collect materials with approximately 368 of those years available for acquiring books, broadsides, and manuscripts produced before the first movable type revolutionized printing. The Darcy family probably owns several Book of Hours. These were apparently all the rage in the late fifteenth century.

Garden Hermits, Aunt Catherine, and Clement's Departure

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